CCW Choices
One of the docs I work across from recently completed the preliminary process for his concealed carry application. He's got his prints, his passport photo, and his CCW class out of the way. He's just trying to decide who to apply to and which license to obtain. We discussed his options over patients yesterday, and I gave a few of my own opinions. I'll present them here.
Doc was first contemplating a Florida non-resident CHL, due to the longer (five year, soon to be seven year) period of licensure. Mas Ayoob advises getting a non-resident permit in every state contiguous to your own. He often recounts a story of a student of his, who didn't see the necessity of doing so. When visiting his dying father in a neighboring state, the student forgot that he was packing. In the neighboring state, the student was attacked by an assailant with a blade. He was forced to draw and shoot to defend his life. The criminal died. The student was charged with Manslaughter.
Although he was eventually acquitted of manslaughter, the student was convicted of carrying a concealed weapon without a permit, and was sentenced to a mandatory one year jail sentence.
That's a powerful reason to obtain a out of state license if you travel to states other than your own. Florida's non-resident permit allows the holder to legally carry a concealed handgun in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Delaware, Florida, Virginia, Texas, Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont and Wyoming.
The counter argument is that such widespread non-resident reciprocity is likely to be one of the first items on the agenda of an Obama administration attack on CCW in the next four years. If a person obtains a non-resident Florida CHL, a license in their own state should also be obtained in the event the powerful Florida non-resident license is legislated away.
Next, Doc and I discussed carry guns. He presently owns a KelTec P32 and a Smith & Wesson Model 38, both good choices in my opinion. Doc spends a lot of time in New Orleans and Baton Rouge, sweating away in shorts and a T shirt.
We discussed some of my hot carry solutions, and moved on to caliber. I expressed my view that a citizen should be able to reliably stop an attack with as few rounds as possible to block the "overkill" argument if their self defense case goes to court. I believe the best choice is the largest caliber that the carrier can get shots on target with under stress, and effectively conceal.
Pocket pistols such as the Model 38 and the KelTec are great for hot N'awlins carry. I have been known to carry either one at times. They are not the best option once to have to stop someone from killing you though. A faceful of .32 bullets might be effective. Chances are, a 45 slug in the same spot will have better incapacitation abilities with less risk of the prejudicial "overkill" argument. Thus, my choice, when I can conceal it effectively, is a 45.
We talked about the need to shoot the Model 38 defensively, and the ability to fire a revolver with the muzzle jammed into the aggressor's ribs. Doc admitted that he was not a good double action revolver shot. We made plans to hit the range together in a couple of weeks when we are both off call.
Doc was first contemplating a Florida non-resident CHL, due to the longer (five year, soon to be seven year) period of licensure. Mas Ayoob advises getting a non-resident permit in every state contiguous to your own. He often recounts a story of a student of his, who didn't see the necessity of doing so. When visiting his dying father in a neighboring state, the student forgot that he was packing. In the neighboring state, the student was attacked by an assailant with a blade. He was forced to draw and shoot to defend his life. The criminal died. The student was charged with Manslaughter.
Although he was eventually acquitted of manslaughter, the student was convicted of carrying a concealed weapon without a permit, and was sentenced to a mandatory one year jail sentence. That's a powerful reason to obtain a out of state license if you travel to states other than your own. Florida's non-resident permit allows the holder to legally carry a concealed handgun in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Delaware, Florida, Virginia, Texas, Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont and Wyoming.
The counter argument is that such widespread non-resident reciprocity is likely to be one of the first items on the agenda of an Obama administration attack on CCW in the next four years. If a person obtains a non-resident Florida CHL, a license in their own state should also be obtained in the event the powerful Florida non-resident license is legislated away.
Next, Doc and I discussed carry guns. He presently owns a KelTec P32 and a Smith & Wesson Model 38, both good choices in my opinion. Doc spends a lot of time in New Orleans and Baton Rouge, sweating away in shorts and a T shirt.
We discussed some of my hot carry solutions, and moved on to caliber. I expressed my view that a citizen should be able to reliably stop an attack with as few rounds as possible to block the "overkill" argument if their self defense case goes to court. I believe the best choice is the largest caliber that the carrier can get shots on target with under stress, and effectively conceal. Pocket pistols such as the Model 38 and the KelTec are great for hot N'awlins carry. I have been known to carry either one at times. They are not the best option once to have to stop someone from killing you though. A faceful of .32 bullets might be effective. Chances are, a 45 slug in the same spot will have better incapacitation abilities with less risk of the prejudicial "overkill" argument. Thus, my choice, when I can conceal it effectively, is a 45.
We talked about the need to shoot the Model 38 defensively, and the ability to fire a revolver with the muzzle jammed into the aggressor's ribs. Doc admitted that he was not a good double action revolver shot. We made plans to hit the range together in a couple of weeks when we are both off call.
Labels: CCW
posted by Xavier at 10:23 AM
20 Comments:
At the very least he can buy a few snap-caps in .38 caliber and practice his trigger pull while in front of the TV. This will do two things: strengthen his trigger finger, and smooth the action of his Model 38.
Since the one time I fired a gun defensively was just such a contact scenario as you describe, I was very happy to have a revolver in my hand instead of an auto. An auto fired while in contact with the attacker might malfunction; a revolver won't.
I'm comfortable with a set of licenses that is reciprocal in each contiguous state--I don't need a Michigan or Pennsylvania license, because existing licenses are valid there.
There are only a few different license recognition policies--Mix and match from the following:
Reciprocal (recognizes our state's license)
Similar requirements
No non-resident except ours
Any valid license.
Ohio is reciprocal/similar. This means my Ohio license is good in most states that require training, and the states that recognize all licenses. It is not recognized in states without a training requirement that require the other state to recognize their licenses.
Check one of the "build a CCW map sites" like handgunlaw.us that show multi-license coverage. For Ohio, New Hampshire is the best bang-for-the-buck. $20 for 4 years, available by mail and covers most of the no-training states, including Pennsylvania, the only contiguous state my Ohio license isn't good in. Pennsylvania gives Texas (and one more, I think) for another $20. If there is an internet gun forum that covers your area, someone has likely figured out the best options for your area.
Thanks Seve! Just the site I was looking for!
I believe that Florida, although they issue non-resident permits, do not recognize permits from non-residential states (could be just those states that themselves issue). So as a MO resident, if I had a FL permit, I could not use it to carry in FL.
Best to check which states recognize which permits- my MO permit is good in the vast majority of them, so there's really no point in another state's permit.
Of course a non-resident FL permit is valid in FL. That is one of the main reasons they issue them; if you live in a state that does not have reciprocity with FL you can get a non-resident permit to carry concealed when you visit FL. I live in VA and have a VA CHP which is recognized in FL but I got a non-resident FL permit because it is recognized in several more states that do not recognize VA. Also, note that some states that recognize FL only accept the Resident permit.
BTW, as of June 11, 2008, FL permits are now valid for seven years.
MDB in VA
In my business I have to carry a bag with me that has to stay close to me at all times. I carry in the bag so sweat is not an issue.
Ah revolver or auto, the eternal debate. I think I would definitely go for the revolver in this case since the auto in question is a Kel Tec. I know people have lots of good things to say about them, I just wouldn't trust my life to a tiny auto pistol.
The Louisiana State Police Permit website indicates that a Louisiana Concealed Carry Permit is recognized by most states in the union and all of the states bordering Louisiana. Is it still necessary to get non-resident carry permits for those states?
I'm currently living in north LA with a FL license. I'm fully covered on my drive from to my parents house in KY and back.
As far as CC goes, you might want to point him towards Keltecs larger pistols. I'd recommend the P-11 or P3AT. I carry a P-11 with Keltecs' new 12 round hicap magazine. Amazing amount of fire power in a tiny package.
Fortunately, we here in Missouri have our licenses recognized by all our surrounding states that have CCW. Just don't go east to the gulag known as Illinois.
When I first got my S&W M442, I used some fired cases as snapcaps and practiced that way. My wife discouraged doing so in from of the TV since the Clicks competed with the TV audio.
Friend and fellow smith and I were at an after church late breakfast once with some more caliber bigoted people with CHLs. "I'd rather wear a vest in August than carry a pea shooter!" etc.
One fellow said he'd never carry a .22 or .25 as a defensive arm because they were ineffective. My friend offered to shoot him with either where he wanted to shoot him and see how it worked out.
Fellow shut up and we moved on to a different topic.
Hmmm. For those few who, like me, travel *A LOT*, it would be interesting to determine the smallest number of permits one would need to cover the maximum number of states.
I'm in New York at the moment, one of the "hopeless" states as far as out-of-state'rs are concerned.
Just call me, Defenseless.
U.S. Rep. Cliff Stearns, Florida and Dem. Rep. Rick Boucher, Virginia are presently working on bill H.R.197, the National Right-to-carry Reciprocity Act of 2009. The bill would make states that issue concealed weapons permits to recognize valid permits held by visitors from other concealed carry states. Visitors would be subject to the regulations of the state they are visiting, not their home state. Even if the state you are visiting does not issue permits, holders of valid licenses would still be allowed to carry almost anywhere that is allowed.
Hopefully if they can ever get this bill through, it will work to help clear up confusion on which states will honor others' permits.
I'd like to think that he could try to federally regulate the state-issued permits,but that the states would show enough spine to point out the 10th Amendment and tell him to pound sand.
I suspect I may be giving way too much credit to state governors and legislatures, though.
Peripatetic Engineer,
The issue for Doc was the length of time on the license, not the reciprocity.
One other thing to note is that many states will not honor an out of state permit if the person is a resident. (they want their pound of flesh as it were).
Example, Arizona honors every other state permit. (yes even Kalifornistan) However, if you are an AZ resident, you must have an AZ permit. The state of AZ wants their $65.
Another reason I collect permits is that it helps generate those "permit applications at all-time high" headlines that make the Bradyite's heads explode.
Do it for the children.
-Zoom
There is absolutely no right to carry at all in IL.
and that's not looking to change.
I think you should get a license in your home state, baring any no-go issues for you personally. It's right to show support for those that got that system in place.
Here in MN, we're surrounded by no carry states and our own executive branch's inability to faithfully execute our reciprocity laws. However, I did get a NH permit to gain ND and because it was an easy application. The other suggestion was to get UT, but they have a fingerprint requirement I'm not OK with.
I would think your instructor (for those states with class requirements) would spend some time on the reciprocity game. And a heck of a game it is. We're lucky to have sites like handgunlaw.us to help us out.
Very interesting...thanks for this post.
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