To Buy or Not to Buy

From an email:

Xavier,

I ready your blog daily and thank you for your insight on evaluating firearms. I have learned volumes from your writing and hope to enjoy reading your posts for years to come. I live in Salt Lake City, Utah, and recently found this revolver for sale on a local classifieds site.
I haven't contacted him because I wanted to get your take on the revolver. Does this look/sound legit? Thank you for your assistance.

$450.00
"Victory" model Smith & Wesson .38 SPCL revolver
Sandy, UT 84070 - Aug 11, 2008
I have for sale a "Victory" model Smith & Wesson revolver. This was a lend-lease gun, and has the "British Nitro-proof" markings on the Cylinder and above the Smith & Wesson name on the left side of the barrel. The British converted this revolver to .38 SPCL, although the barrel is still marked .38 S&W CTG. All serial #'s match, and the "V" is stamped before the serial # on the bottom of the butt strap, and the face of the cylinder. The barrel has been professionally shortened to 3.5", and the lanyard ring was removed, probably for concealment purposes.
Buyer must be willing to sign a bill of sale. No phone calls after 8pm, please.

It's legit, but be aware that a British lend lease Victory was originally chambered in .38S&W. To rechamber it in .38 special, the length of the chambering is increased. What many do not understand is the .38S&W is a bit larger in diameter than a .38 special. Of course, this difference can not be taken away. The result is frequently ruptured shell casings and problems with extraction.

The shortening of the barrel is usually OK for a shooter if it's done well and a good crown is placed on it. The grips on this revolver, of course, are not original. The Smith & Wesson British Victory for sale is no longer historical, and it is likely a poor shooter. It's market value is between $125 and $175, depending on the area it is sold in. A good used Model 10 would sell for around $200-250. A M&P would sell for about the same. An unaltered Victory in .38 special (US) would sell for $300-450 depending on type and condition. An unaltered British Victory would go for about the same amount now.

There is no way I would pay $450 for the revolver you are considering. You can get a much better original gun for that money.

My two pesos.

Xavier

Analysis of a Victory

From a current auction on Gun Broker. The seller says:

US Navy marked Smith & Wesson M&P.
This is not a "Victory" model.
Frame serial number: 969XXX
Parkerized finish that looks near mint. Based of the sharp clear lettering, in my opinion, this is the original finish.
This gun looks unfired (but it has been) and I think it would be very hard to upgrade. As with all military weapons they do get test ("proof") fired.
BARREL: 4". Rifling appears to be sharp with no pitting (bore is dirty, could use a good cleaning). Marked "38 S.& W. SPECIAL CTG" on the right side, "SMITH & WESSION" [sic] on the left side and a two line address with patent dates on top. No import marks.
FRAME: Marked "PROPERTY U.S. NAVY" on the left side under the cylinder release latch and the right side has the S&W logo with "MADE IN U.S.A." No import marks.
SERIAL NUMBERS: matching on the grips (stamped into the wood), butt and cylinder. Assemble numbers matching on the crane and frame. This is all as it should be.
Hammer, trigger and lanyard ring are case colored.
Matching numbers on the butt, cylinder, barrel, grips and extractor rod.
Matching numbers on the frame and the crane.

This revolver is presented for auction as an original finish gun in the seller's opinion. It clearly is not. It has a parkerized finish, which also covers the ejector rod and most likely the extractor (which the seller is careful not to show.) Original finish Victory revolvers have blued extractors and ejector rods. The original finish of these revolvers was not parkerizing.

The Property of US Navy marking on the left of the frame is interesting. These markings were applied by the US Navy, after receipt of the revolver, resulting in a damaged finish. The letters were often filled with red paint, as shown at right, to prevent rust in the bare metal at the bottom of the stamping. The commonly used red paint led to the moniker "Red Navy Victory" among collectors. This mark is also perhaps the most commonly faked marking among S&W revolvers. Finding this marking filled with parkerizing is a certain indication of a refinish.

The seller hedges his bets, stating his offering is a "US Navy marked Smith & Wesson M&P" True enough, but marked by who? He goes on to state "This is not a "Victory" model." Again, true enough. He even states it is parkerized. It appears to me this seller is guarding against a return on the gun, banking on the buyer's enthusiasm and ignorance at the time of the transaction.

The seller claims a serial number of 965XXX, and states that the grips match. There, the serial number can be discerned. 965675. Only Roy Jinks can say for certain whether this revolver shipped from Springfield to the US Navy, but since the seller gave his opinion on it's authenticity, I'll give mine. It didn't. Someone at sometime though, wanted to make it appear as though it did.

Postscript: The auctioned revolver went for $717.00.

How Much Is It Worth?

"I was browsing the local gun store today and looked at an old S&W Victory model .38 special. The gun locks up tight, however, it is very beat up from the outside, the blue is almost entirely gone, the grips are bad, and some dufus engraved his name into it. (poorly)

What would you say a gun like that is worth? They were asking $299 but I think that's too much, I might go back and make an offer. I've been looking for a gun in exactly this kind of shape to fix up...but I'm thinking it should be under $200. Am I wrong?"

First, make certain it is originally a .38 Special and not one of the converted British Victories.

Assuming it is originally .38 Special, and assuming it has no function issues, a beater Victory Model is worthwhile as a functional firearm. If it still has the original grips and lanyard loop, it can be an interesting addition to a revolver collection. Not all guns have to be pristine. Sometimes it's nice to just hold a scarred up old gun and wonder about the stories it could tell.

Several years back I purchased a battle scarred and reblued Victory Model that had a bent trigger guard binding the trigger. It had diamond magnas on it, and the lanyard loop was long gone. I fixed the trigger guard, put on some appropriately scarred Victory grips and a lanyard loop. I enjoy shooting it, it's reasonably accurate, and I don't have to worry about devaluing the gun if it gets knocked around a bit. To me, that has value.

I paid $150 for it. I've had a lot of fun with it, it shoots decently, and is reliable. It's also historical. To me, that is worth $150, perhaps a bit more now. Later on, I found a nicer Victory Model for $300. I bought that one too. I still have them both, but the one I brought back from the brink is the one I prefer.

At this time, in my opinion, $300 is too much to pay for the Victory Model you describe. $150 is more like it, maybe $200 if you are in a S&W deficient area. In time, it will be worth $300, but it's going to be quite a while. If you want the gun, try to talk the seller down to a more reasonable price. Wait him out if you have to. If you have $300 and want a Victory Model in better condition, you can likely find one fairly easily. Whether the revolver in question is worth $299 is entirely up to you though. On a gun like this, the gun has no absolute value. It is only worth the price the seller and buyer agree on. You, or another buyer, will be instrumental in making that determination.

The British Victory Model

In 1941, the British Isles witnessed the evil sweeping through Europe. With the Brits facing the Nazi blitzkrieg alone, Smith & Wesson stepped forward to supply the Limeys with the sidearms necessary to fight back. Between October 1941 and May 1945 over 570,000 of these military issue revolvers were shipped all over the globe on a "lend-lease" program to the British Empire.

Commonly called "British Victories" by some, the revolvers shipped to our future allies are more properly referred to as Smith & Wesson Model K-200 or .38/200 British Service Revolvers. Like the Victory Models later issued to American troops, the K-200 was a Model of 1905 with a rougher, sandblast blue finish, although early models received a polished or brushed blue finish. Most sported plain walnut grips, but some early K-200s had checkered grips. Unlike the US version, the K-200 had a five inch barrel, and was chambered in .38 S&W, a shorter cartridge, slightly larger in diameter than the ubiquitous .38 special. On the butt was a pivoting lanyard ring. In addition to being stamped "US Property" on the top strap, the British Service Revolvers have British proof marks as well as the occasional proof marks of other countries. Some even had "Not Made In England" stamped into their frames, in spite of a corresponding "Made In USA" rollmark from Smith & Wesson.

After the war, Great Britain disarmed, and many of the revolvers were returned to the United States as surplus over the years. Sadly, quite a few of them were converted to .38 special by reaming out the chambers. Alas, the chambers were too large in diameter for the .38 special, and ruptured shell casings were commonplace on firing them after this conversion.

In addition to the rechambering, some were butchered even further, receiving new ramped front sights on chopped barrels, and a chrome finish to make them more attractive to the US market. The returning K-200s were sold for between $25 and $35. Today, unmolested examples in Very Good to Excellent condition often command prices between $375 and $500. Original accessories can drive the price up a bit more.

I still hope to find a K-200 in unmolested form, as well as a pimped up, chopped and chromed version for a fair price. Somehow, I think I had better buy while the buying is good.

More

Evaluating a Victory Model

A reader brought this Smith & Wesson Victory Model to my attention. The seller's description reads:

S&W 10 (VICTORY)Price $259.00 S&W 10 (Victory) in 38 SPL CAL with 4" barrel Color BLUE Condition 80% Serial number V267190 ALL ORIGINAL!!!!

Now I'm not one to denigrate another man's item for sale, but I am one to educate others.

Larger resolution photos of this revolver are available at the link above. They really are not needed however. This revolver is far from "ALL ORIGINAL!!!!" It has been refinished in a poor quality hot blue. The S&W logo on the sideplate is almost polished away. The screws appear to have been polished down as well. Chances are, the entire revolver was not even disassembled except fot a grip removal prior to tossing it in the bluing tank. Finally, the grips are wrong. Non-diamond magna grips did not appear until 1968. The Victory Model wore smooth walnut service grips. The lanyard loop is long gone, but a replacement is available from Numrich.

Still, this revolver has a couple of pluses. It does bear the "US Property" marking, and it has not been bumper chromed. I actually purchased a similar S&W Victory revolver, but at a very different price. The Victory Model I purchased was $150, and it had diamond magnas. This particular example, while a Victory Model, has zero original finish. It's numbered grips are long gone. It has no collector appeal. If functional, it's worth about $150 as a shooter.

You can see my two S&W Victory Models here.

On Old Converted Victories

I bought and have just received a .38 S&W caliber M&P that had the cylinder bored out to accept a .38 SPL. I was only told that it was a .38 SPL. When I got it, I saw the "V" in front of the serial number for a Victory model. I know .38 S&W bullets are 3/1000" bigger in diameter than .38 SPL. It can't seal as well. Is that 3/1000" enough to affect accuracy and velocity? Plus, the .38 S&W case is a bit wider than that of a .38 SPL. I've read that sometimes the narrower .38 SPL cases bulge and could be cranky to remove. It's a beautiful gun, all nickeled and reworked by Parker Hale in England a long time ago. It's Does anyone have any experience with this conversion? Will it work up to snuff? Should I return it? Am I worrying over nothing? If it works well, I'd keep it but there's the "no firing" "examination only" return period. The action is like glass, the bore is great and it's gorgeous overall. I knew it had been refinished and I just wanted a shooter and it only cost $225, which is cheap for a nice old S&W. It looks ten times better than it does in the picture. Thanks.
woad_yurt

I find your revolver interesting. I find the front sight/rib on your revolver to be interesting, as well as it's history and conversion. I collect old S&W Military & Police revolvers. I want, at some time, to acquire a Parker Hale conversion, in nickel, for an acceptable price. You will note that I have not yet found such a revolver at a price acceptable to me. My acceptable price, around $150, might just be a tad low.........I say one thing, the market apparently says another.

True, your Victory Model has no collector's value, at least on the usual collector's market, and the .38 S&W to .38 Special conversions are sketchy at best. To oddball collector's like me though, it's an interesting revolver, and that's good enough.

The problem comes in pricing such a gun. To a common garden variety blue chasing firearms collector, your revolver has no value, and those guys are who the books are written for. As a result, you must know what the gun is worth to you. The reference books are worthless to you on pricing. It is good that your revolver is accurate and you are pleased with it. That is good enough.

If I were you, I would shop around for some genuine, period stag or jigged bone grips, screw them on, and enjoy the heck out of this revolver. In the end, any revolver is only worth what the seller and a buyer agree on.

More on this neat gun and some sage wisdom from Old Fuff and others here.

The Red Navy Victory

Some Smith & Wesson Victory revolvers bear a US Navy stamp below the thumb piece. Often, this stamp is filled with red paint by the Navy to enhance visibility. Sailors have a habit of painting everything.......

This type of marking has been faked with some regularity by a nefarious west coast seller, claiming they are producing "representative" examples. Such a property mark increases the revolvers market value by double to triple. The only way to be certain such a revolver is actually "Navy" is to get a letter from Roy Jinks.

A Pair of Victories

In 1941, along with the rest of the United States, the Smith & Wesson Military & Police revolver went to war. A rich polished blue finish was traded in for a sandblast blue and then parkerizing. Checkered grips were swapped out for smooth but serviceable walnut stocks. A lanyard loop was attached.

Since 1939, Smith & Wesson had been shipping five inch M&P revolvers in .38S&W to Great Britain on a lend/lease program. These are commonly known as 38-200s or K200s.
With the U.S. declaration of war, all production was stopped except for those revolvers, and the four inch Victory Model for American troops.

These two Victory Models I have pictured were found in pawn shops. The top one was purchased from Dave for $300. The lower Victory revolver was purchased from Amber for $150. It was not nearly so nice as the top one, and required a bit of work to get it back into an authentic representation of what it once was.

Victory revolvers were once plentiful in the marketplace, despite an agreement between S&W and the US government that they would not be sold as surplus. It is not uncommon for them, in particular the lend/lease guns, to be found with cut down barrels, Franzenite grips and a cheap chrome finish. Unmolested Victory Models still exist, although they are becoming harder to find. If a person wants to speculate on future appreciation of a firearm, the Victory Model is one of today's safest bets.

More information on the S&W Victory Model

The Crushed Victory

Ever since I read of the destroyed Victory Models in John Henwood's book, I have wanted one. These were often sold at gunshows with the spurious story that they were run over by a tank. It seems a lot of tanks were running over Victory Models in WWII! The truth is, these revolvers were destroyed by our own government. The contract between the US government and Smith & Wesson for the Victory Model revolvers specified that the government would not sell the guns as surplus when the war was over. This protected Smith & Wesson from struggling in a gun market flooded with their own revolvers, as had happened after WWI with the M1917.

Thus, as excess Victory Models were removed from service, most were destroyed rather than sold. Comparatively few Victory Models reached the general public as functional guns. Government agents oversaw the destruction of most of these arms. An ordnance officer was required to be present as a steam powered hammer crushed each of these perfectly serviceable revolvers in three places; on the barrel, the cylinder, and the triggerguard. The remains were then sold as scrap metal.

Several enterprising firms purchased the scrap in bulk, and resold them as gun parts. The crushed Victory Models were usually priced under ten dollars each in 1980, and even included the grips, and lanyard loop. Either would cost over ten bucks today.

When I saw this stripped crushed Victory on a table at a recent gun show, I wanted it for two reasons.....First, the historical aspect, but secondly it is a US Navy rollmarked version, and it will help me avoid counterfeit US Navy Victory Models in the future. I asked the seller what he wanted for it, and I was relieved to not hear the old tank running over the gun story. The seller simply said twenty bucks. I handed it back to him with the comment that I could find one with a cylinder and grips for that amount. I turned to leave, and he asked "How much will you give me?" I told him it was worth ten bucks to me to be able to place it in a display of M&P revolvers. He thought a minute, and considered that he had gotten everything off the revolver he wanted, and agreed to my price. Call me crazy.

Pawn Shop Circuit: Victory!

I had that feeling when I walked into Dave's shop this morning. It's kind of hard to describe, but it's the feeling that I had better go check those shelves.
Today the instinct yeilded a very nice Victory Model Smith & Wesson in .38 Special.

This Victory Model lacked the US Property markings, and thus had been sold through the Defense Supply Commission, and was used stateside. It was in great shape. All the numbers matched, including the grips, and it retained it's original finish. The case hardening colors on the trigger and hammer were still bright. The action was smooth and tight. Chances are, it rested in the desk drawer of some manager type for years.

Dave did not have a tag on the gun yet, so I asked him how much he wanted. He retrieved his tattered Blue Book, and turned to his S&W tab. He asked "This is a Victory gun, right?" I said yes. Dave saw a range of prices in 95% condition spanning $200 to $400. He was a bit confused and did not want to ask anymore questions, but he knew what he gave for the gun. "How about $300?" he probed.

"That's fair." I replied, and I began to fill out the 4473. This was not the Victory Model that was at the estate sale. This wartime Smith & Wesson was in great shape with the original grips and lanyard ring.
The old revolver is in much better shape than my other Victory Model. This one still has the original parkerized finish, and it appears to be essentially unfired. It does have a turn ring and a bit of muzzle wear.

Unfortunately, I did not have time today to do much more than photograph the revolver. I'm looking forward to putting some lead down range with it soon.

Estate Sale Victory

When I got home from work tonight, my wife mentioned that she had visited an estate sale and seen a revolver. She swore it was a Smith & Wesson with white grips, so I went with her to have a look. A half hour later, we drove down a brick driveway to an old Tudor style house. Inside, the heavy green drapes and musty shag carpet revealed a home that had not been updated in 35 years.

"OK, where is the gun?" I asked as my nose began to run. My wife led me to a room in the rear. This was obviously the "man's" room, with rusty tools, crusty plumbing supplies, and a revolver on a table. A white haired lady was seated in the corner reading a crumbling Harlequin novel. She looked over her chained reading glasses at me suspiciously as I picked up the Smith & Wesson Victory revolver.

I swung the cylinder open to insure the gun was not loaded. I found six empty cylinders. I took the price tag and placed it on the recoil plate to reflect light up the bore. The bore was in good shape. The serial numbers on the cylinder, barrel and frame all matched, plus, it had it's lanyard loop. It wore white plastic Franzite magna grips. The revolver had a US Property stamp on the topstrap, and the finish was mint. The case colors were strong and sharp. Technically, this was a S&W 38/200, originally chambered in the anemic .38S&W caliber. It had a five inch barrel, meaning it was likely imported back to the States from duty abroad during and after WWII. Even so, I could find none of the usual British proof marks on this revolver. Many 38/200s were rechambered, poorly, to accept the more popular .38 Special cartridge prior to importation. I could find no revised caliber markings, and I had no snap caps or .38 Special cases to check the chambers. Regardless, for such a gun, the finish was a bit too good.

I looked at the tag. It read $400.I pulled out three hundred dollar bills and politely offered them to the lady with the Harlequin novel.

She curled her lip and sniffed "This was Mr. Maynard's personal gun that he carried on Guadacanal with George Patton! It has ivory handles that General Patton gave Mr. Maynard himself! Surely you can do better than that!" I learned a long time ago not to argue with those who know nothing regarding a subject. I placed the revolver back among the rusty tools and scratched .45 records. Perhaps it will show up in one of the pawn shops in a week or so. I'll keep my eyes open.

Call Me Crazy........

I was reading about these demilled Victory Models in John Henwood's book last night. In 1979 they sold for $8.95 each or ten for $75. Call me crazy.......I want one, or two, or three......

Victory Snubbie

.38 caliber serial number V668586 with a two inch barrel.
100% rearsenal parkerized finish with original grips.
Auctioned off for $230 at Cowan's.

A two inch Victory is very scarce, and commands a premium three times over the cost of a four inch Victory. Thus, this revolver should have sold for $1400-1500. Why did it not? Because it is a fake. The hammer is a Model 10 hammer. The frame lacks the hammer pivot pin being exposed underneath the cylinder latch. Thus, it is a later frame and it should not have a V prefix serial number. Therefore, the serial number has been altered. Bad juju.

Click the pic to compare this fake to a real Victory Model, and be careful. Know what you are buying.

Reclaiming a Victory Model

I first saw my Smith & Wesson Victory M&P on the Pawn Shop Circuit. It was far from perfect. It had a sticking action, a missing lanyard loop, and the wrong grips. I was able to purchase the old revolver for $150, so I took it home to troubleshoot it. The gun had been dip blued. The sticking action was caused by a bent triggerguard. At some point, this gun had been used to adjust someone's attitude. I removed the trigger and filed it's underside until it cleared the triggerguard and no longer stuck in place.
I had some old faux stag grips in my parts bin, so the diamond magnas were removed in favor of stag. I shot the old war horse this way for a while, but it just did not seem right. I began a search for the proper wood and a lanyard ring.
Today, my old Victory M&P looks like it has lived a rough but full life. The refinish is worn, the walnut is dented and chipped, and there is freckling appearing in places. Like an old armoir that has collected some scars through the years, this revolver has character. It's reliable, and a gun that can stand some rough handling. For $150, that ain't bad. I'm pleased to own it.

Victory Model Tops $1000

A US Navy marked Victory Model M&P has topped $1000 on Auction Arms. The revolver is all matching, in near perfect condition with a very nice, correct Boyt USN holster. True, a darned nice package is up for bids. Supica lists the Victory M&P at $400 in As New condition, assigning a 10-25% premium to a Navy inscribed example. That makes $500 for the revolver itself. Of course those prices are now about five years old. Still, this is about the most expensive holster I've seen in a while!

Final price: $1,310.00

Smith & Wesson Victory Range Report

I popped into the range during lunch today to run a box of ammo through my new Victory M&P. A friend had brought over a lanyard loop for it, and I installed that. I solved a sticky action problem by gaining a bit of needed clearance between the trigger and triggerguard. Apparently somebody at sometime had cracked a skull with this revolver, slightly altering the triggerguard profile. Finally, I installed some faux stag grips from my parts box.
I shot a box of 50 through the wheelgun, and had no problems. I was not exactly thrilled with the accuracy, almost any revolver I own shoots better. With the beat up muzzle on this gun though, I guess I should not be surprised.
I'm considering keeping the stag grips on the gun. They are starting to grow on me. All in all, I'm happy with this purchase. $150 can buy a heck of a lot worse at the gun counter.